" Ah yes, JustMe, not one of you is a conservative, but yet you talk like them. Name calling? You mean like your pals throwing around the word "socialist" when what's proposed is not socialism? Show me where the government or the people mean to take over the means of production. As far as addressing your "points"---what points? Shoving health care down everyone's throats? Where? Where is it said you have to enroll in this system against your wishes? Oh, it's the funding...right! Well, show me where you have a choice in where your federal tax dollar goes. As I said, I have no choice in the purchase of billions of dollars in weaponry we'll never need or use. So it stands to reason that there will be some who think they shouldn't fund health care, despite the fact we do need that, unlike the F-22. Maybe you can tell me why it's fine to spend a million dollars in air-dropped ordnance to kill one suspected Afghan guerilla but when a penny is proposed to save a life, suddenly you become a fiscal guardian.

Or maybe you're complaining about the fact I didn't address your lists of liberal groups that you posted. Excuse me, but I posted the list first. None of you addressed it beyond the typical "Yeah, so?" Therefore, why do you merit me answering you? Quid pro quo, JustMe, quid pro quo. "

" HotCoffee wrote on Aug 13, 2009 11:08 AM:
" You're a gem, Matthew. I notice you won't address who funds your little groups. Could it be that you like being misled so long as it's conservatives doing it? "

I noticed that you won't address the same issue in my post. Rather than reply to my comments you went off on a rambling tangent, but apparently couldn't respond to any of the facts I posted. Could it be that you like being misled so long as it's liberals doing it?

Please don't call me a conservative, I'm not. Over 30 years ago I came to the realization that government is not operating in my best interest, but in the governments own interest. I just like to point out the hypocrisy of people like you. My personal opinion is that the Federal Government needs to follow the Constitution, which they haven't done for a long time.

You've pulled the race card and you continue calling names, but you still didn't respond to even one point that I made. As a matter of fact I've noticed that you've not responded to most of the comments directed at you, but you've done an excellent job calling everybody names in your long winded diatribes. What was that you were saying about discussion skills? Please don't pretend to respond to my post. I'd be better off talking to a brick wall that trying to have a reasonable discussion with you. BuhBye!






HotCoffee wrote on Aug 13, 2009 12:50 PM:

Good job ignoring every point I raised in my post and going off on a tangent. I didn't think you would have a logical response to my points, and apparently I was correct. All I saw in your reply was name calling and accusations.

Only second to playing the race cars to prove your "

" Well, Just Me, I don't like having the massive Pentagon budget shoved down my throat, but I have no choice. And you conservatives fully support shoving weapons systems down everyon'e throats. So don't tell me about "shoving things down other peoples' throats" because that's not what's being done. That is what your conservative handlers are telling you and here comes all this fake populism of whiners who say things like "Government get your hands off my Medicare!", demonstrating they haven't read so much as a paragraph.

You guys kept wantting discussion. And once you got that, you show up at these townhalls and shout down the senators and congresspeople that are trying to speak, thus stifling discussion. Yeah, great discussion skills there! Shouting, screaming, yeah, that's real great discussion. "

" HotCoffee wrote on Aug 12, 2009 7:12 PM:
" Well, JustMe, you seem to have forgotten that these conservative groups, like the ones I cited, are getting funding from the medical insurance industry and others.

Well, HotCoffee, you seem to have forgotten that these liberal mobs, like ACORN and others are getting funding from, well, me and other taxpayers who happen to object to the Federal Government shoving this down our throats.

Why is it that you have a problem with people and groups who have a stake in this spending their OWN money to protest this massive taxpayer ripoff, yet you have no problem with the Federal Government funneling tax dollars to liberal groups in a not-so-transparent attempt to pretend that the general population supports this massive fraud.

I suspect that many people, like me, aren't against health care reform. We just don't want it shoved down our throats. This problem has been going on for decades, so any reasonable person would probably agree that that we should take few months to discuss the issues and get things right the first time. But some people are determined that it has to happen RIGHT now, with no discussion. What doesn't the Government want people to know that they're in such a hurry to pass this?

I won't respond to the rest of your post. Once you pull the race card you've admitted that you have nothing to offer to the conversation. Thanks for pretending to be a rational person, but your writing proves otherwise. "

" You're a gem, Matthew. I notice you won't address who funds your little groups. Could it be that you like being misled so long as it's conservatives doing it? "

" The best thing about ALL of this is, the American people are finally off their couches, studying, and learning about how our Government is supposed to work. No matter what side of this debate you happen to be on, you simply have to admit that for too long there have been too many of us that have been complacent, and have allowed government to run over and trample our rights. This debate is uncomfortable, I have lost good friends over it, friends that I have known and loved for years. But the fact remains, too many of us have not been paying attention, or have been waiting for "someone else" to do anything about it. Rest assured, a sleeping giant is awakening and there will be change forthcoming - maybe just not in the way some of you had imagined. Specter should realize that yes, this IS the real America that is awakening. I just hope we are waking up in time to prevent the downfall of this great country and it's unique foundation. "

" Well, JustMe, you seem to have forgotten that these conservative groups, like the ones I cited, are getting funding from the medical insurance industry and others. Bussing wouldn't be an issue if it wasn't for the fact that corporate handlers are creating this astroturf.

But, hey, it's only about poor people getting medical care. I suspect that among some conservatives---not all, but some---the constant cry of "illegal aliens will get it!" gives us a window into the motivations of some. I suspect some are motivated by a type of racism. The thought that "Mexicans" will get free health care. Because, really, you see the complaints about sealing the border South, but no worries about other illegal immigrants. Well, excepting Arabs, of course. Then there's the thinking among some that free health care for the poor means it's for certain minorities, which doesn't sit well with certain Far Right people who have obviously attached themselves to this movement. After all, a Georgia congressman just had a swastika painted on his office after a townwhall debate. I also suspect that all this "Obama wasn't born here!" is also racially motivated. And the thinking that a black president automatically means whites are threatened is also present. All this "Obama is a racist" nonsense when, in reality, it is some conservatives---not all, but some---preaching racial bigotry, though in a subtle fashion. Ok, well the swastika wasn't so subtle. Just sayin'... "

" HotCoffee writes: "Yeah, Matthew, you tell those people to stop behaving like sheep"

Java boy, Take some time to read the bill. Then perhaps you'll be able to make a positive contribution to the discussion. "

" HotCoffee wrote on Aug 12, 2009 11:10 AM: Never mind these townhall mobs are being bussed around by conservative groups....

Why is that a problem? The Democrats and groups like ACORN have been doing this for years. You wouldn't be one of those hypocrites I keep hearing about would you? Here's a few current examples.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=169x9027

http://gomyd.com/2009/06/22/healthcare-rally-in-dc-on-thursday-625-free-buses-free-lunch/

http://beavercountyblue.org/2009/07/21/bus-trip-to-dc-july-30th-rally-and-lobby-for-single-payer-healthcare/

http://www.democrats.com/node/19877

http://unionsforsinglepayerhr676.org/news_releases/2009-07-20 "

" Yeah, Matthew, you tell those people to stop behaving like sheep! Never mind these townhall mobs are being bussed around by conservative groups who, in turn, derive their funding from the medical insurance industry! Let's see. there's FreedomWorks, run by the former House majority leader Dick Armey, and a new organization called Conservatives for Patients’ Rights.

Conservatives for Patients' Rights is run by Rick Scott, who used to be the honcho of Columbia/HCA which is a for-profit hospital chain. It seems the freedom-loving Mr. Scott was forced to resign in the middle of a fraud investigation. Columbia/HCA eventually pled guilty to charges of overbilling state and federal health plans. They paid $1.7 billion in fines. Oh, what's that? Can it be, dare I say it, that these townhall mobs might be sheep, Matt?

And look what I found, Matt, on FreedomWorks own site:
http://www.freedomworks.org/press-releases/freedomworks-opposes-asbestos-trust-fund-bill

FreedomWorks opposes creating a fund to healp victims of asbestos exposure. Have ou ever seen someone with lungs ravaged by asbestos exposure, Matthew? I have. It would seem that FreedomWorks wishes to enshrine the freedoms of corporations to continue exposing workers to asbestos. Gosh, and look here:
http://www.redherring.com/Home/pages/print/posts/?bid=7c885b70-f74d-478d-9cd3-46258788ce50&mode=Full

Wow! Seems FreedomWorks is for sale, Matt! What was that you said...sheep, was it? And would ya look at this:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/22/AR2006072200683.html

Man, I can't believe it! A fine, freedom-loving group like FreedomWorks out to fleece the, er, sheep?

Well, Matt, look, I know we all don't have inquisitive minds seeking the truth. Lots of people believe whatever they're told. So, you might wish to rethink your use of the word "sheep". "

" Hey, Flag Lifer, I remember when George W. Bush came to town some years back. This was before he started the Iraq War. They wouldn't let people in who were opposed to the war. A guy in the crowd, I think it was Uncle Don Fanning if I recall correctly, held up an anti-war sign and was hustled off by Secret Service. He held up a sign, that was it. If I recall correctly, all he did was hold up one of those "Peace Please" bumperstickers. Before Secret Service hauled him away, all the conservatives in the audience were demanding he be arrested. So don't play this martyr "They did it first!" game. None of your people are being hustled off by Secret Service for shouting and screaming and disrupting meetings. But you've done that to others for far less. Remember "Free Speech Zones" where protestors were kept far away from President Bush and Republican events? So now you're complaining? Hmmm....pot meet kettle. Shoe, meet other foot. Except the shoe isn't on the other foot, is it? None of you have been hauled off by Secret Service, have you? And now your group has degenerated to painting swastikas on the offices of congresspeople since the shouting isn't getting you the attention you want. Classy. Real Americans, right? I wonder what will be next. "

" Forget about fact check. Just read the bill. The Daily Sun’s skewed opinion piece is full of false information. If you think you'll be able to change or modify your insurance, once the government's plan is implemented, read page 16. If you don't believe your health care will be rationed, read page 29. If you don’t believe illegal aliens will be included in this plan, read page 50. If you don't believe that doctors salaries’ will be controlled by the government, read page 127. If you don't believe that citizens older than 65 will have their medical services reduced, read page 239. Read the bill. Stop behaving like sheep. "

" Most of the people at the event were senior citizens worried because they had been told lies about losing Medicare benefits. They should remember that Democrats fought for Medicare, just like they are fighting now to extend medical benefits for the uninsured. Our medical system has problems. The pre-existing conditions clauses don't make sense in these economic times. American citizens paying more for the same prescriptions than citizens of other countries doesn't make sense, either. We need to let Ann Kirkpatrick know that many of her constituents want healthcare reform. With our support she can calmly explain that there is a lot of misinformation out there, and that in reality Democrats have always supported Medicare and will continue to do so. "

" Like some have been saying as ye sow...so shall ye reap. I remember hearing the Minutemen shouted down when trying to discuss immigration reform. Liberals have been disrupting meetings for years now. And now all of the sudden they don't want negative comments and rude behavior. I don't think the Bush administration nor those who supported him did either, yet I don't recall a cry for civil behavior then. The Democrats should be enjoying this....free speech at its finest "

" Here's the scoop. The Republicans lost. A majority voted in Obama. A majority wants public health care. Deal with it. Move on. You'll have your chance to run again in 2012. Though if you're running Palin---and I hope you do---we'll have Obama in 2012 second term. Better get used to it. You guys blew it with W---big time. Maybe if you came out against his tyrannical malarky (remember him saying "I'm the decider! I'll decide what's best!!!"?), you'd have some credibility left. But you didn't and now don't. So, you're looking for someone to blame? Find the closest mirror. "

" Robert -- Go through the archives of the FactCheck.org and you'll find they are an equal opportunity "factchecker", if you will. For example, I found this in their archives: http://www.factcheck.org/2009/04/100-days-of-spin/ -- It's about Obama's statements during his first 100 days. They also factcheck the president's press conferences. Right now, with the heated propaganda coming from all sides on the health care reform debate, they are busy researching the claims as fast as they hit the airwaves or your mailbox. "

" The Sun seems to have adopted factcheck.org as the bible for factual information. I'm sorry but such a superficial source will do harm to your credibility. Factcheck only seems to followup on misinformation from Republicans. As a Democrat, I wish the other party had more of a propensity to spin but the realist in me knows that is not the case. Look at the sheer volume of articles factcheck writes that are favorable to Democrats. Also, don't forget Obama has a long history with the Annenberg Foundation.

Factcheck is a reliable source, no doubt, but you have to dig a little deeper to the the entire picture. "

" "Unfortunately, as of Monday, U.S. Rep. Ann Kirkpatrick's site does none of the above. It simply links to the text of a very complicated House bill and promises more will be posted later."

How much would you bet she has not read the bill? No wonder she can not talk intelligently about it. It was reported that Jeff Flake, a congressman from the Valley held a town hall in the Valley last night. They had space for 1500 at an auditorium and it was so packed that folks had to wait outside. Mr Flake stayed for hours to address all questions. The video showed there was some shouting. He did not shirk his responsibility. In fact, he apologized and went outside to talk to those who could not get in. He also said he would hold another. Compare that with Ann Kirkpatrick who is now in the Mideast at taxpayers expense. Look at her website if you dont believe it! "

" The Sun says: "Maybe we're missing something here, but since when did town hall meetings become platforms for shouts and chants that make a discussion impossible?"

Excuse me but I know for a fact that people were not shouting and chanting and making discussion impossible at Ann Kirkpatrick's meeting!!! Kirkpatrick DID NOT want to answer questions. Please quit spewing lies Arizona Daily Sun. "

" Here is the youtube of Ann Kirkpatrick leaving the meeting with her constituents early. Where is the angry mob that the AZ Daily Sun reported a few days ago? These people seem to just want answers to their questions. Thanks to youtube for showing the truth once again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLjcmKMUwEc "

" Thank you for a well written editorial. I am increasingly frustrated by the level of vitriol that surrounds this issue. Our current health care system is a drag on our economy. This issue requires careful evaluation of alternatives, and rational discussion about the relative merits of those alternatives, carried out in an atmosphere of mutual respect for others' positions. I am hoping that cooler heads will prevail on this issue. Given the fractious nature of Congressional politics, and the level of political polarization that has infected our society, I'm afraid that hope may well be dashed. "

" Why is the President in such a hurry to pass the proposed health care bill? Obama knows - Americans are beginning to understand that the Democratic Party is more interested in taking control of 1/6 of the nation’s economy, than providing quality health care for Americans. If politicians were truly concerned about the quality of our nation’s health care, they’d at least take the time to read the legislation.

A large crowd of folks showed up at Flagstaff’s health care forum. The structure of the forum was carefully thought out, obviously designed to avoid meaningful interaction between government representatives and their constituency. The forum featured an “all Democrat” panel who presented a Democratic perspective of proposed health care plans. Panel members showed little interest in the concerns of the small number of citizens who were actually permitted to speak. The attitude of the panel members clearly illustrated why folks across the nation have become so frustrated with government representatives. Over 200 folks were in attendance. Many of them wanted to share their concerns. No real opportunity for a fair and balanced presentation of opinions. It was a shameful display of the elitist attitude that is so prevalent in today’s political environment. The Daily Sun’s description of the Flagstaff health forum was pathetic. Those on the left can't understand that someone other than their ilk has a right to express their opinion in a public display and demand explanations.

The American people already know that Obama's plan to lower health costs while expanding coverage and bureaucracy is a myth. Just read from Obama’s own congressional budget office cost estimates. That’s why so many folks took the time to show up. If there truly is a need for health care reform, it should be done with the medical profession, the pharmaceutical industry, the insurance industry, and government legislators/regulators sitting at the table hammering out a viable solution acceptable to all the people, not just Barack Obama. We have an administration that is out of control, operating in the red, spending trillions of taxpayer dollars. The economy will never be able to support this massive national health care plan. Who's going to train the hundreds of new doctors and nurses that will be needed to support this scheme?

Every Senator and Congressman – all of them – before we even discuss healthcare reform, should, first have their own “skin in the game”. These guys have no skin in this game, not even a tiny chunk. Republicans offered a resolution, an opportunity to lead by example, an opportunity to enroll themselves in the same public plan. The resolution has over 40 co-sponsors. Not a single one is a Democrat. Politicians are eager to vote in favor of ObamaCare, but demonstrate a complete lack of confidence when asked to participate in the program. The Congress and Senate have a wonderful health care plan. It’s a private insurance plan, not a government run plan. Why can’t every American have their plan? What more does it take for Americans to understand what’s going on here? It was never about health care, it’s about control.

ObamaCare basically means that every time you are sick or injured, a regulatory agency of the Federal Government will tell your doctor what he can and cannot do for you. I wonder how the elderly folks in this country will react when they’re denied hip replacement surgery because of their age but illegal immigrants are given the medical treatment that they need? How can we add an additional 30 million people into our health care system without adding additional doctors and nurses to care for them? It’s simple; health care will be rationed and strictly controlled by the government. It’s the liberal answer – “let the government take care of us”.

Before any clear thinking American purchases an insurance policy, they certainly want to know what the deductible costs will be, which prescriptions are covered, and what criteria is used to determine if they are eligible for specific treatments or not. But those who support ObamaCare are like sheep, following along, without a clue of what this program is really about.

The liberal media criticizes those who’ve taken the time to read and understand this legislation. Ordinary folks have come out of the wood work in opposition to ObamaCare. Democrats have shamefully attempted to deflect attention from the real issues by demonizing those who express strong opposition to the fundamental flaws contained in the legislation. This legislation, if passed, will change our country forever. If Americans were ever entitled to express their opinion, this is certainly the time. This is still America. We still have a constitution.

When Obama was in pre-election campaign mode, he made some reasonable statements about healthcare. He told us we could keep our insurance if we were happy with it. He told us that government-run healthcare with higher taxes was a bad idea. He didn't think anyone should be forced to purchase health insurance. All of those campaign promises were lies. Only naive liberals believed him. If the plan is implemented, the word democrat will become a curse word, and the words liberal and progressive will make folks gag. At least some good will result from this. "