News
What next for Snowbowl? Construction could start soon
But a tribal attorney says his clients are weighing further legal action and asking federal officials to revoke the construction permitWith no litigation in any court at this time, construction at Arizona Snowbowl could start this year, say Snowbowl executives.
"Really, we have to just work with the Forest Service to establish a schedule that works for them and works for us," said owner Eric Borowsky. But attorneys for multiple tribes are considering further possible legal or other action to block it.
They have the option of asking the Department of Agriculture, which oversees the Forest Service, to undo snowmaking approval, of going to Congress to get laws changed, or of appealing another point of the case.
"We will definitely do something," said Howard Shanker, an attorney for some of the tribes in the case, to prevent snowmaking at Snowbowl.
As a start, Borowsky said the ski area might install short conveyor belts this year to carry beginning skiers uphill on Hart Prairie during group lessons rather than use the chairlift or a rope tow.
His latest estimates put the cost of a 14.8-mile water pipeline, snow guns, reservoirs and pumps at about $13 million, to be funded by Snowbowl.
He did not say whether he would plan to hold off on construction in the case of further litigation by those opposed to snowmaking and other developments at the ski area.
The Hualapai Tribe, among others, is weighing its legal options, said attorney Levon Henry.
The tribe considers the Peaks the group's birthplace, and opposes a number of recreational activities there.
"One of the options involves an environmental claim that the 9th Circuit did take some interest in but didn't rule on," Henry said.
In essence, the tribes and environmental organizations raised multiple arguments in court about why snowmaking should not be allowed at Snowbowl.
They included assertions that the U.S. Forest Service had not properly met with all the affected tribes, despite meetings held, and that snowmaking could harm the environment.
Some of those arguments were decided briefly, and without long hearings.
The tribes could return to court to ask for a full hearing on whether snowmaking poses environmental risks, and ask for an injunction on construction in the meantime.
Environmental arguments were introduced at the 9th Circuit, but were set aside for procedural reasons.
Tribes could also approach Congress or the Obama administrationto ask for a law specifically aimed at protecting Native American beliefs, said Shanker.
His plaintiffs won early on in the 9th Circuit, before a three-judge panel, but that ruling was overturned by 11 judges in the same court.
"We lost on an 8-3 decision which unfortunately broke down on political lines," Shanker said.
The Coconino National Forest also signed an agreement with Arizona State Historic Preservation Office in 2004 stipulating the following in the case of further development on the Peaks:
-- The Forest Service will protect plants considered important by the tribes.
-- The agency also agreed to: provide periodic inspections by tribal members to examine specials sites on the Peaks, guarantee access to tribal members, ensure special sites are avoided during development, protect these sites as confidential, give tribes reports detailing impact of snowmaking on plants and animals, and give an annual report to tribes on development at Snowbowl.
The agreement was signed by the Forest Service, the Hualapai Tribe, the state's Historic Preservation Office, the Fort McDowell Yavapai Nation, the Yavapai-Prescott Tribe and the Yavapai-Apache Nation.
The Havasupai Tribe, the Hopi Tribe, the Pueblo of Acoma, the Navajo Nation, the Dine Medicinemen's Association, the San Carlos Apache Tribe, the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe, the Tonto Apache Tribe and the White Mountain Apache Tribe did not sign it.
Cyndy Cole can be reached at 913-8607 or at ccole@azdailysun.com.
What's proposed for construction
-- 205 acres of snowmaking
-- 10 million-gallon snowmaking water reservoir near the top terminal of the existing Sunset chairlift, and a pond below the Hart Prairie Lodge
-- 14.8-mile reclaimed water pipeline between Flagstaff and the Snowbowl
-- 3,000 to 4,000-square-foot snowmaking control building in the vicinity of the
existing maintenance shop
-- sledding area
-- chairlift on the side of Humphreys Peak
-- conveyor belts to carry young and learning skiers uphill on Hart Prairie
-- enlarge Hart Prairie Lodge
-- a "Native American cultural and education center" in or near the Agassiz Lodge
-- 47 acres of thinning
Source: Coconino National Forest Environmental Impact Statement
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Ned Del Callegjo, left, stands with a small group protesting the decision by the U.S. Supreme Court not hear an appeal to the decision allowing artificial snow to be made at Arizona Snowbowl. (Jake Bacon/Arizona Daily Sun)
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Leave your comments below:
GRYFIS wrote on Jun 24, 2009 11:32 AM:
" Vince - Even after a lengthy response, you still have not addressed my primary point. That treated wastewater enters the environment ANYHOW!! Where’s your outrage about that? Shouldn’t you be lobbying for an overhaul of the wastewater treatment infrastructure of the US?
If you want to play the point-counterpoint game, I can play too.
Mississippi River: The article you reference discusses industrial contamination (not relevant in Flagstaff) agricultural contamination (again - not relevant here) and municipal sewage discharge into the river. It’s concerns about municipal sewage has to do with untreated or minimally treated effluent with high levels of fecal coliform bacteria. Sorry, but that’s not an issue with the level of treatment at the Rio de Flag plant (the water Snowbowl will be getting).
Chickens and Septic tanks: Again, it’s a level of treatment issue. Your example link just doesn’t rate. A septic tank and the Rio De Flag plant are about as comparable to each other as a '59 Buick and a Toyota Prius.
Snowmaking: The link you provided lists that the MINIMUM treatment level for snowmaking is ‘A’. The reclaimed water in question is treated to ‘A+’ standards. Even one of your sympathetic rags has published an article confirming that fact. http://www.flagteaparty.org/Publications/Headlines/Pages/2002/March_April2002/SnowbowlApril.html.
Norovirus: Again - It’s a matter of treatment. People can get norovirus from a variety of sources, but all are from exposure to contaminated matter. Read your link to the AZ Secretary of State for ‘A+’ water. In order to achieve that rating, it has to undergo the most stringent disinfection. Golf course irrigation is only required ‘B’ classification which does not include additional treatment/testing to ensure disinfection and virus elimination. Not all municipalities in Arizona provide ‘A+’ water to irrigate their golf courses.
Again - please answer me this. Where do you think this water otherwise goes after it leaves the treatment plant? "
If you want to play the point-counterpoint game, I can play too.
Mississippi River: The article you reference discusses industrial contamination (not relevant in Flagstaff) agricultural contamination (again - not relevant here) and municipal sewage discharge into the river. It’s concerns about municipal sewage has to do with untreated or minimally treated effluent with high levels of fecal coliform bacteria. Sorry, but that’s not an issue with the level of treatment at the Rio de Flag plant (the water Snowbowl will be getting).
Chickens and Septic tanks: Again, it’s a level of treatment issue. Your example link just doesn’t rate. A septic tank and the Rio De Flag plant are about as comparable to each other as a '59 Buick and a Toyota Prius.
Snowmaking: The link you provided lists that the MINIMUM treatment level for snowmaking is ‘A’. The reclaimed water in question is treated to ‘A+’ standards. Even one of your sympathetic rags has published an article confirming that fact. http://www.flagteaparty.org/Publications/Headlines/Pages/2002/March_April2002/SnowbowlApril.html.
Norovirus: Again - It’s a matter of treatment. People can get norovirus from a variety of sources, but all are from exposure to contaminated matter. Read your link to the AZ Secretary of State for ‘A+’ water. In order to achieve that rating, it has to undergo the most stringent disinfection. Golf course irrigation is only required ‘B’ classification which does not include additional treatment/testing to ensure disinfection and virus elimination. Not all municipalities in Arizona provide ‘A+’ water to irrigate their golf courses.
Again - please answer me this. Where do you think this water otherwise goes after it leaves the treatment plant? "
Vince wrote on Jun 24, 2009 12:21 AM:
" Score on volcanoe.
This webpage talks about untreated sewage entering mississippi river, but that is slowly being cleaned up. Just because the Mississippi River is a mess is not a reason to pollute pristine drinking water for sking.
http://civil.engr.siu.edu/301I_Ray/mississr.htm
Is it safe to raise chickens near a septic at high altitude? No. Other people in other areas of the country are more concerned about their children and chickens being exposed to effluent especially at high altitude.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080811163308AAyHBr5
From the state of arizona secretary of state.
http://www.azsos.gov/public_services/Title_18/18-11.htm
Snowmaking is A. Somebody needs to write Kirkpatrick.
This is not a dead issue. As water quality rules do not address viruses. How many times has the Norwalk virus chased away the Arizona Cardinals. How many kids were quarantined at NAU a few years ago. I had to transport some kids home as nobody wanted to take possible sick Noro kids back to Phoenix.
"State requirements do not address viruses. In Arizona where reclaimed sewage is used on golf
courses, “The Maricopa County Medical Examiner's Office has confirmed that a 15-year-old
golfer died after contracting the Norwalk virus that sickened 82 other golfers during a tournament
at the Thunderbirds Golf Course.” The death law suit was settled for 3 million dollars."
http://thewatchers.us/Coliform_where-are-scientists.html "
This webpage talks about untreated sewage entering mississippi river, but that is slowly being cleaned up. Just because the Mississippi River is a mess is not a reason to pollute pristine drinking water for sking.
http://civil.engr.siu.edu/301I_Ray/mississr.htm
Is it safe to raise chickens near a septic at high altitude? No. Other people in other areas of the country are more concerned about their children and chickens being exposed to effluent especially at high altitude.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080811163308AAyHBr5
From the state of arizona secretary of state.
http://www.azsos.gov/public_services/Title_18/18-11.htm
Snowmaking is A. Somebody needs to write Kirkpatrick.
This is not a dead issue. As water quality rules do not address viruses. How many times has the Norwalk virus chased away the Arizona Cardinals. How many kids were quarantined at NAU a few years ago. I had to transport some kids home as nobody wanted to take possible sick Noro kids back to Phoenix.
"State requirements do not address viruses. In Arizona where reclaimed sewage is used on golf
courses, “The Maricopa County Medical Examiner's Office has confirmed that a 15-year-old
golfer died after contracting the Norwalk virus that sickened 82 other golfers during a tournament
at the Thunderbirds Golf Course.” The death law suit was settled for 3 million dollars."
http://thewatchers.us/Coliform_where-are-scientists.html "
GRYFIS wrote on Jun 23, 2009 1:38 PM:
" Uh...Vince...minor point here, but the peaks are a strato-volcano, not a shield volcano.
Regardless though, there seems to be some misconception about where the reclaimed water goes after it leaves the treatment plant. Contrary to apparent popular belief, it doesn't magically disappear off the face of the planet once discharged into the Rio de Flag Wash. It doesn't even make it to the Little Colorado River before its absorbed into the ground. Look at the geology around the Rio at the discharge point on the east side of town. It's limestone rock which is full of fractures, faults and caverns. Ever hear of the Bottomless Pits on that side of town? Seems to me like that's a pretty direct route to the groundwater.
If I was concerned about the effects of the reclaimed water on the groundwater, I'd personally rather have it filter through the cubic miles of soil and rock that are the Peaks. That is, instead of it being flushed directly into the groundwater via a system of limestone caverns and faults.
Also - Flagstaff won't be the only town to be drinking reclaimed water. Look at all of the towns and cities along the Mississippi that draw their water it. Every one of them draws their water from the river and then discharges it's treated waste water back into it. By the time the water has traveled from Minneapolis to New Orleans, who knows how many times that water has been recycled. New Orleans may have some of strange people running around it's streets (especially at Mardi Gras), but I doubt any of them are a direct result of drinking the water.
If the current standard of treatment (A+ classification) still releases too many toxins into our environment for your taste, then li'l ole Flagstaff and the Peaks should be the least of your concerns. You should be camping out at the US Congress demanding a nationwide revision to the EPA standards for waste water treatment. "
Regardless though, there seems to be some misconception about where the reclaimed water goes after it leaves the treatment plant. Contrary to apparent popular belief, it doesn't magically disappear off the face of the planet once discharged into the Rio de Flag Wash. It doesn't even make it to the Little Colorado River before its absorbed into the ground. Look at the geology around the Rio at the discharge point on the east side of town. It's limestone rock which is full of fractures, faults and caverns. Ever hear of the Bottomless Pits on that side of town? Seems to me like that's a pretty direct route to the groundwater.
If I was concerned about the effects of the reclaimed water on the groundwater, I'd personally rather have it filter through the cubic miles of soil and rock that are the Peaks. That is, instead of it being flushed directly into the groundwater via a system of limestone caverns and faults.
Also - Flagstaff won't be the only town to be drinking reclaimed water. Look at all of the towns and cities along the Mississippi that draw their water it. Every one of them draws their water from the river and then discharges it's treated waste water back into it. By the time the water has traveled from Minneapolis to New Orleans, who knows how many times that water has been recycled. New Orleans may have some of strange people running around it's streets (especially at Mardi Gras), but I doubt any of them are a direct result of drinking the water.
If the current standard of treatment (A+ classification) still releases too many toxins into our environment for your taste, then li'l ole Flagstaff and the Peaks should be the least of your concerns. You should be camping out at the US Congress demanding a nationwide revision to the EPA standards for waste water treatment. "
Vince wrote on Jun 22, 2009 6:58 PM:
" This better work or Flagstaff would be the only city to contaminate its water source. The beauty you see will disappear when your city runs out of water and you will not be walking those trails one talks about. Ironically, the Native American will still be there to gather there herbs and pray.
The mountain is a shield volcano. If the effluent penetrates the soil, the water will end up at Fort Valley. That same graben fault runs directly to Flagstaff water well fields at Woody Mountain road. "
The mountain is a shield volcano. If the effluent penetrates the soil, the water will end up at Fort Valley. That same graben fault runs directly to Flagstaff water well fields at Woody Mountain road. "
MYSELF wrote on Jun 21, 2009 9:58 PM:
" So I'm seeing alot of people who oppose this expansion due to the fact that they deem the PEAKS a sacred and holy place. HOWEVER...........I do not see these people out there with their corn pollen praying and worshipping the mountain as they seem to want everyone to believe. People who oppose this expansion, I ask of you, when is the last time you walked the peaks just because it is a beautiful and holy place. A place that you say is sacred and precious to your tribe and way of life. I am willing to bet that a vast majority of you have not done so with in the last year maybe five or ten. I am not saying you have to be out there everyday praying and worshipping but don't be so hypocritical. I applaud the efforts of the people who are out there fighting against this day and night, but if you're not one of the few then you have no right to say anything. Typing it out and saying "I oppose this project...blah blah blah" won't cut it. I know people who have been there fighting from the very beginning and I commend them. If you truly and wholeheartedly believe in opposing this then fight like the people who have travelled to San Francisco and picketted. Otherwise sit down and shut up! "
vince wrote on Jun 18, 2009 10:01 AM:
" Pressure at the bottom of the pipe would be around 1,200 psi. If the pipe breaks, the water would erode the soil around the pipe or a geyser of effluent in Flagstaff, Arizona. A ball park figure on creating 100 acres of snow at 10000 feet to over 12 inches of snow is around $100,000. A few warm spells and the electric bill will be expensive.
When the pipe breaks(like in Grand Canyon), the Big Fat cats will spray your house. "
When the pipe breaks(like in Grand Canyon), the Big Fat cats will spray your house. "
Pines wrote on Jun 17, 2009 10:07 AM:
" Just because they build it doesn't mean they will get enough business to pay for the new construction. The local restaurants are struggling to stay afloat because there are so many unemployed in town. What makes you think people who won't go out for dinner will spend hundred$ to go skiing? Even Phoenicans are unemployed so don't look to them to save the town. "
On point wrote on Jun 16, 2009 9:43 AM:
" Do any of the bloggers realize where the reclaimed water goes when it is not being used on Snowbowl? I'll tell you, it flows down the Rio de Flag wash and flows through Doney Park and eventually the aquifer. It already flows through the community along the Rio de Flag. It's the same water that is in Francis Short Pond. So from a simple standpoint, the use of reclaim water on snowbowl just means it starts higher upstream along the Rio de Flag wash. It all ends up in the same place, in the aquifer.
Those are facts, however feel free to get all emotional and irrational, and argue off topic. I realize that's half the fun of blogging. "
Those are facts, however feel free to get all emotional and irrational, and argue off topic. I realize that's half the fun of blogging. "
NAU N8tv wrote on Jun 15, 2009 4:16 PM:
" $13 million huh? So does that include a $48K pay increase for the business owner as well?? I think I'll just do a navajo-taco sale somewhere in flag to help offset the costs for our school lunches....but wait, then I'd be doing something 'indigenous' or would the actual sale be more 'corporate America' hmmm what a dilemma!! "
dl wrote on Jun 14, 2009 2:02 AM:
" First of all the reclaimed water is treated better than the water you drink. Second the tribal people are not happy because they are not getting a kick back of the profit. I have seen the reverse effects of there claims. We are native american no you cant get are government money or profit from our casinos. And the favorit " If your not native american or mexican you cant get acchs so find a rock and die" this statement was said to my mother who is sick. So GROW UP! the water will infact benifit the enviroment becaus it has "fertilizer" qualities. Ya dont wanta beleive me. Look it up. "
Powder Pig wrote on Jun 13, 2009 10:18 AM:
" wow wrote on Jun 12, 2009 7:36 AM:
" Powder Pig you are clueless
plants and animals do not benefit from effluent
why don't you do us all a favor and rink some yourself "
wow:Please don't get in a big snit because you don't understand the benifits. Simply put: Strict Health Department specifications for effluent> effluent used to make snow> snow melts> water> plants and trees absorb this moisture> growth> animals eat or nest in plants/trees. Take it from there.Sounds like win/win for plants and animals not to mention other benefits of recycling.Sorry to upset you I realize this is an emotional issue for many as it also appears to be much more emotional than rational with you. "
" Powder Pig you are clueless
plants and animals do not benefit from effluent
why don't you do us all a favor and rink some yourself "
wow:Please don't get in a big snit because you don't understand the benifits. Simply put: Strict Health Department specifications for effluent> effluent used to make snow> snow melts> water> plants and trees absorb this moisture> growth> animals eat or nest in plants/trees. Take it from there.Sounds like win/win for plants and animals not to mention other benefits of recycling.Sorry to upset you I realize this is an emotional issue for many as it also appears to be much more emotional than rational with you. "
Matt Turner wrote on Jun 13, 2009 6:45 AM:
" What's all this talk about pee and kneeling down......and I don't pee in your church yada yada. I'm not so concerned about the snow as I would be kneeling down in the Burger King parking lot in Kayenta. Seriously??!! Can't say I've ever been on a mountain bike ride on the Peaks and crossed someone kneeling down to pray either! Get over it.....there's better things to fight for. "
mark wrote on Jun 12, 2009 1:33 PM:
" That sounds like a great idea to put a 10 million gallon lake on the mountain up above flagstaff!!! "
wow wrote on Jun 12, 2009 7:36 AM:
" Powder Pig you are clueless
plants and animals do not benefit from effluent
why don't you do us all a favor and rink some yourself "
plants and animals do not benefit from effluent
why don't you do us all a favor and rink some yourself "
saddened wrote on Jun 12, 2009 12:39 AM:
" WOW....13 million! Isn't it just a little sad that 13 million will be spent expanding the snowbowl? Meanwhile, there was the article about the increase of school lunches. Sadly, for some of our students/children, the school lunch is sometimes their only nutritional meal. Lets not forget the budget cuts within FUSD. Where's our priorities these days? Let's not forget that our children will be our future leaders. . . . So, when we are crying for our retirement or social security benefits, they'll probably be spending it - expanding the skate park at Bushmaster! "
Humanist wrote on Jun 11, 2009 3:43 PM:
" I see this as another battle in the whites vs. indigenous people, wherein the whites and their mainstream capitalist ideology win again.My understanding of this issue is that the anti-snowmaking side objects to the use of RECLAIMED WATER, not the entire principle of snowmaking because it is deeply offensive to numerous indigenous tribes' religious and spiritual beliefs.
I find it a terrible shame that again the indigenous people's beliefs and values are disregarded in the name of "progress", i.e. profit for the resort and closely affiliated tourist businesses. I am neither a skier nor Native American. I believe in valuing people's beliefs and that there are many aspects of life that are more important than economic development. "
I find it a terrible shame that again the indigenous people's beliefs and values are disregarded in the name of "progress", i.e. profit for the resort and closely affiliated tourist businesses. I am neither a skier nor Native American. I believe in valuing people's beliefs and that there are many aspects of life that are more important than economic development. "
ME wrote on Jun 11, 2009 1:33 PM:
" Greed....................... the american way..........
It will end some day........... "
It will end some day........... "
Powder Pig wrote on Jun 11, 2009 9:10 AM:
" Hey, all this reusable reclaimed water is claimed to be fit for human consumption, it's not like they're using raw sewage. The trees and other vegetation will benefit to some degree as a byproduct of spring runoff and the critters who use these plants. Drive through some of the reservations and take note of how they treat their "pristeen" land. Maybe this will help kick start Sunrise Ski Area to utilize more of their multi-million dollars worth of snowmaking equipment before it rusts back into mother earth. "
Perfect Combination wrote on Jun 10, 2009 2:07 PM:
" The court got it right.
But wouldn't it be the perfect combination of kharma and irony if the Snow Bowl's owners couldn't afford to peoceed with construction because of a precipitous drop in profitability of their other business, the strip clubs in Scottsdale? "
But wouldn't it be the perfect combination of kharma and irony if the Snow Bowl's owners couldn't afford to peoceed with construction because of a precipitous drop in profitability of their other business, the strip clubs in Scottsdale? "
skiingismyreligion wrote on Jun 10, 2009 1:52 PM:
" to mdm,
Don't worry about reclaimed water killing Pondorosa Pines at Snowbowl. There are no Pondorosas at that elevation. "
Don't worry about reclaimed water killing Pondorosa Pines at Snowbowl. There are no Pondorosas at that elevation. "
mondo man wrote on Jun 10, 2009 12:06 PM:
" It's funny when you think about it this way. All this land once belonged to the Native peoples and themselves only. Today they own just a small portion of what they once had and they are just asking for one little thing; to respect their NATIVE traditions and religions in which the San Francisco peaks plays a crucial role. How can a people be so blind, ignorant, and greedy to a people who lived here for thousands of years relying on that mountain. C'mon now give them a break, you can sacrifice a little recreation for the sake of an aboriginal people. You all aren't so smart after all. I can't wait to see what happens. Our day will come. Peace out or make war. "
Oscar wrote on Jun 10, 2009 11:25 AM:
" My prediction: Snowbowl will be sold long before any substantial "improvements" are made. Lawyers fees were a pittance relative to the profit margin the owners think they can realize by selling the place with the expansion approved.
Flagstaff and the feds got hoodwinked by the real estate developers who own Snowbowl and their hollow threats of "closure." Worse yet, tax payers will have footed the bill through Forest Service and Department of Justice ignorance and acquiescence to bully politics...
A smart investment if it works, and one that makes fools of virtually everyone involved. Makes you wonder who all will get a cut of the spoils.
Ah, the Manifest Destiny of skiing Arizona in November. As if... "
Flagstaff and the feds got hoodwinked by the real estate developers who own Snowbowl and their hollow threats of "closure." Worse yet, tax payers will have footed the bill through Forest Service and Department of Justice ignorance and acquiescence to bully politics...
A smart investment if it works, and one that makes fools of virtually everyone involved. Makes you wonder who all will get a cut of the spoils.
Ah, the Manifest Destiny of skiing Arizona in November. As if... "
Sherri wrote on Jun 10, 2009 8:45 AM:
" HALLELUYAH!!!
How many people pee on the Peaks every day because it is the "wilderness"? And just think that pee wasn't cleaned up first.
I don't believe the mountain will suddenly turn yellow either!! Let's face it the view of the Peaks will not change.
Like mo said "don't eat the snow". But if you do, it won"t kill you. "
How many people pee on the Peaks every day because it is the "wilderness"? And just think that pee wasn't cleaned up first.
I don't believe the mountain will suddenly turn yellow either!! Let's face it the view of the Peaks will not change.
Like mo said "don't eat the snow". But if you do, it won"t kill you. "
Sherri wrote on Jun 10, 2009 8:36 AM:
" HALLELUYAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Peaks aren't going to look any different. How many people in general pee on the peaks every day just because it's the "wilderness"? And just think, that pee wasn't cleaned up first!!
Did you hear the machines running at night thispast winter? You aren't going to hear anything else either.
Stop your bellyaching and let Snowbowl help our economy before there aren't any jobs for the people that are at least trying to live here.
Like mo said "Don't eat the snow". And if you do, IT WON'T KILL YOU. "
The Peaks aren't going to look any different. How many people in general pee on the peaks every day just because it's the "wilderness"? And just think, that pee wasn't cleaned up first!!
Did you hear the machines running at night thispast winter? You aren't going to hear anything else either.
Stop your bellyaching and let Snowbowl help our economy before there aren't any jobs for the people that are at least trying to live here.
Like mo said "Don't eat the snow". And if you do, IT WON'T KILL YOU. "
intherearviewmirror wrote on Jun 10, 2009 8:28 AM:
" Greed drives the machine. I am glad I do not live in Flagstaff. Let the skiers muddle in thier own muddle. More money for more toys......GREED. "
joke wrote on Jun 10, 2009 7:28 AM:
" i already laugh at the fools driving up to snowbowl from my fort valley home.
now i will laugh even more, due to the pee and poo covering their skin and clothes "
now i will laugh even more, due to the pee and poo covering their skin and clothes "
Conservative View wrote on Jun 9, 2009 11:13 PM:
" GET OVER IT!
You lost.
Stop wasting your time and money over property that the Natve American don't own.
I'm happy for the SnowBowl owers, employees and Flagstaff merchants. "
You lost.
Stop wasting your time and money over property that the Natve American don't own.
I'm happy for the SnowBowl owers, employees and Flagstaff merchants. "
Thumper wrote on Jun 9, 2009 9:15 PM:
" The caption for the picture says a lot: "Ned Del Callegjo, left, stands with a small group protesting the decision by the U.S. Supreme Court not hear an appeal to the decision allowing artificial snow to be made at Arizona Snowbowl." A small group protesting.......... Last time I checked Forest Service land is to be managed for "multiple use". It is NOT tribal land, and the tribes don't seem to be bothered much by building casinos and other eyesores on their own land.
I say let it snow! "
I say let it snow! "
mdm wrote on Jun 9, 2009 9:09 PM:
" One last time folks! Reclaimed water kills Ponderosa Pines. Please walk the Aspen Valley or Continental golf courses and see all the stumps lining the fairways where the nitrates in the water (reclaimed for many years) killed the trees. Dr Tom DeGomez of the County Extension warned of this many years ago. Eric Borowsky is going to denude the Peaks in the name of dollars for him and his deep pocket boys. "
Hmm wrote on Jun 9, 2009 7:59 PM:
" Curious how people mention a waste of money for fighting snow making. Yet no one mentions that the tribes fighting were being funded by a tribe that allows snow making on their mountain....curious.... "
T. Ferguson wrote on Jun 9, 2009 3:26 PM:
" My biggest concern is traffic. Did we forget already the mess that was Milton/Ft.Valley/Hwy 180 this past winter? Are we inviting that kind of traffic jam each and every weekend that there will be snow on the mountain now?
I, for one, could care less about tourism, skiing, snowboarding, etc. Not everyone who lives in Flagstaff is directly tied into the tourism industry. I do not look forward to being stuck in traffic each and every weekend just running errands and living my life. Looks like the residents of Flagstaff will have to surrender their town to the tourists more often now....
And I'm sure the typical response to this will be, 'If you don't like it, move.' I'm already planning on it.... "
I, for one, could care less about tourism, skiing, snowboarding, etc. Not everyone who lives in Flagstaff is directly tied into the tourism industry. I do not look forward to being stuck in traffic each and every weekend just running errands and living my life. Looks like the residents of Flagstaff will have to surrender their town to the tourists more often now....
And I'm sure the typical response to this will be, 'If you don't like it, move.' I'm already planning on it.... "
Sherry wrote on Jun 9, 2009 2:54 PM:
" How would you like us Native into to your(holy) Church and pee on your grass, floor in your church or mop with our pee in your holy place. Is your child going to play in grass or knee down and pray? Come on put yourself in our place. The mountain has put here on this earth to protect us and herbs is put there for healing. "
Pete wrote on Jun 9, 2009 2:52 PM:
" To LongTimeResident-
The Snowbowl isn't within Flagstaff City Limits, either, so why do people from Flagstaff think they own it? "
The Snowbowl isn't within Flagstaff City Limits, either, so why do people from Flagstaff think they own it? "
AzWebFoot wrote on Jun 9, 2009 2:28 PM:
" In 1979, the chairman of the Hopi tribe warned, “If the ski resort remains or is expanded, our people will not accept the view that this is the sacred home of the Kachinas."
Thusly it could be argued that for 30 years now, at least the Hopi, no longer maintain that the peaks are sacred.
The argument is moot. "
Thusly it could be argued that for 30 years now, at least the Hopi, no longer maintain that the peaks are sacred.
The argument is moot. "
LongTimeResident wrote on Jun 9, 2009 2:09 PM:
" My condolences go out to the tribes that feel like this is the end of the world. This is not the end of the world, snow making in Flagstaff means that our economy can thrive, our tourism will be up and our moral will be high. No one wants to destroy this sacred mountain we only want to make it a little more "user friendly." Most of the people with concerns over this issue don't even live in our Flagstaff city limits. Snow making will breath new light into Flagstaff and for me a long time resident I am extremely happy! "
ad wrote on Jun 9, 2009 12:39 PM:
" That totally sucks.....The supreme sucks....they have no care for native americans and how that mtn means so much to our people....that is a bunch of BS.......what a freakin waste of money.....people who only care about snow skiing and snowboarding how dumb....that is a sacred mountain to us Native Americans...obviously they can care less about what we have to say..we've never been number 1 priority in the first place.... "
eyeride wrote on Jun 9, 2009 12:17 PM:
" I've always found the Save The Peaks stickers on automobiles mildly ironic. Doesn't Save The Peaks, the tribes, blackfire, etc hold the air we breathe sacred? Polluting the air with their car exhaust is perfectly acceptable but putting treated wastewater on the peak is absolute blasphemy for these folks. Hypocrites...all of them. That being said, I oppose snowmaking with effluent water for environmental reasons not for any religious reasons. "
anon1969 wrote on Jun 9, 2009 11:58 AM:
" And to add:
If it is allowed to go forward, it will mean jobs for a few people. Maybe not for a long period of time, but they might be able to spend money in Flagstaff and who know, maybe go skiing/snowboarding. Cheers! "
If it is allowed to go forward, it will mean jobs for a few people. Maybe not for a long period of time, but they might be able to spend money in Flagstaff and who know, maybe go skiing/snowboarding. Cheers! "
anon1969 wrote on Jun 9, 2009 11:51 AM:
" RaisedHand wrote on Jun 9, 2009 7:17 AM:
" Sooo...who's paying for this pipeline? "
Eventually, if you ski or use Snowbowl, you will. It gets passed onto the consumer in a capitalistic society. Or as Dan Frazier said in another thread:
Dan Frazier wrote on Jun 8, 2009 9:33 AM:
" I'm not much of a believer in higher authorities. But for those who believe in such things, the current economic climate might be considered an act of god, and the economy, or god itself, might make it hard for Snowbowl to proceed with its very expensive project. "
Again, the consumer will eventually pay for this in their use of the facility. And with the popularity of snowboarding and people still willing to spend their money on this activity, Snowbowl should do failry well. Cheers! "
" Sooo...who's paying for this pipeline? "
Eventually, if you ski or use Snowbowl, you will. It gets passed onto the consumer in a capitalistic society. Or as Dan Frazier said in another thread:
Dan Frazier wrote on Jun 8, 2009 9:33 AM:
" I'm not much of a believer in higher authorities. But for those who believe in such things, the current economic climate might be considered an act of god, and the economy, or god itself, might make it hard for Snowbowl to proceed with its very expensive project. "
Again, the consumer will eventually pay for this in their use of the facility. And with the popularity of snowboarding and people still willing to spend their money on this activity, Snowbowl should do failry well. Cheers! "
Brian wrote on Jun 9, 2009 11:50 AM:
" So John I will be waiting patiently for those UN Belgium peacekeepers to show up to enforce the decision of the ICJ if it went the way of the tribes, which it won't. The use of public property, managed by the US Government, is not going to be a deciding issue on when the tribes want to try initiate self-determination under any ICJ mandate regardless of what leftist lunes are writing about in the articles Anne mentioned in the other thread. What would happen to those peacekeepers in this country will make a cakewalk of everything else they have seen in various regions of the world. The US IS NOT a signatory to compulsory relief under the ICJ. You apparently didn't read my quotes from various law encyclopedias on the other thread.
Dr. Mike Koch in Germany (really?): Me thinks perhaps you should be more concerned with what is happening in your own country with the conservatives taking over, of which I don’t think you are a part of, and not being so concerned with a mountain in Arizona. "
Dr. Mike Koch in Germany (really?): Me thinks perhaps you should be more concerned with what is happening in your own country with the conservatives taking over, of which I don’t think you are a part of, and not being so concerned with a mountain in Arizona. "
cynical ingine wrote on Jun 9, 2009 11:23 AM:
" come on cowboy and cowgirls! it's an american tradition to destroy and exploit all things sacred!! yee haw!! "
Dave wrote on Jun 9, 2009 10:30 AM:
" The World Court? Are you serious? I know stupidity is raging here in this article. It's just a couple mountains here people. Get with it already and make the snow. "
peaks resident wrote on Jun 9, 2009 10:27 AM:
" never mind all the filthy attempts to justify this...
but what about the noise?
snow making is very loud "
but what about the noise?
snow making is very loud "
blueeyes wrote on Jun 9, 2009 10:09 AM:
" To bad they can't use the right of way that the power lines use but I guess now that it is a wilderness area they can't do that. "
Ezekiel Yazzie wrote on Jun 9, 2009 10:07 AM:
" When I was a youngster I played on grass that used reclaimed water and found myself getting weird rashes afterwards...anyway, a little medication and the rashes stop itching. But, imagine the shame of having a rash :0 "
chirs wrote on Jun 9, 2009 9:11 AM:
" this is so sad to me because i feel that our goverment(supreme court) has failed us. this mountain is not the forest services or snow bowl. in historic context it is more the tribes, than any other entity. This shows the greed in our society by supposed unbiased groups like the forest service. If anything I feel that the U.S. Supreme Court turned its head to genocide. "
Boondoggle wrote on Jun 9, 2009 8:54 AM:
" I can't stand Howard Shanker. He really said, the 8-3 decision against him, the Sierra Club and the tribes "unfortunately, broke down along political lines"?
People, please. This guy Shanker is the biggest sandbagger in northern Arizona.
The 3-0 decision at the 9th Circuit in Shanker's original appeal, which IMO "unfortunately" broke their way was decided by a Carter appointee, and two Clinton appointees (one of whom was merely Clinton's northern California state director for Clinton's presidential campaign in 1992), and two of the three are Berkeley law grads/professors.
I guess that decision wasn't political, though, huh Howard? Running for Congress in northern Arizona as a Democrat again anytime soon Howard?
Guess not. "
People, please. This guy Shanker is the biggest sandbagger in northern Arizona.
The 3-0 decision at the 9th Circuit in Shanker's original appeal, which IMO "unfortunately" broke their way was decided by a Carter appointee, and two Clinton appointees (one of whom was merely Clinton's northern California state director for Clinton's presidential campaign in 1992), and two of the three are Berkeley law grads/professors.
I guess that decision wasn't political, though, huh Howard? Running for Congress in northern Arizona as a Democrat again anytime soon Howard?
Guess not. "
Dr. Mike Koch Germany wrote on Jun 9, 2009 8:40 AM:
" No clearminded person doesn´t expect another decision of the Supreme Court. In the American society, like elsewhere in this materialistic world, interessts of profit counting more then the rights of idigenous people. With this decision the Supreme Court opens another time the door for the exploitation and destruction of the environmental an spiritual basics of Native American people. In times of worldwide economical and ecological crisises its really kind of stupid to sacrifice nature for a hand of moneymakers and -owners. Here in Europe skiressorts starts looking for a more sustainable tourism. Have a look at our skiareas in the Alps, how they are looking in summertime - you see wasted land and the scars of skitourism. Even for a tourism with a sustainable perspective the development of the snowbowlarea is the wrong decision. So it´s time to stop it now. May be there is for our Native friends no choice, then involving B. Obamah into this conflict. Writing in the name of a lot of Germans I just can tell You "Save the Peaks, yes You can!" "
John wrote on Jun 9, 2009 8:04 AM:
" In this case of the United States Government Versus the Native Americans of the Greater Southwest, its pain to see that politics is the crucial line. Now that a new regime is in place in Washington, perhaps Native Americans can use the power that has been bought over the years to redress the situation. Then there is the World Court! "
berta glawischnig wrote on Jun 9, 2009 8:01 AM:
" My take on the Snow bowl controversy: By an oldtime Vermonter. Vermont in the 1950's (before snow making) was rural, poor with a school system near the last in the United States. The skiing was hit or miss--totally dependent on natural snow. Fast forward into the 21st century. Vermont has substantially improved life for its citizens, education has improved, and thee are more cottage industries. Environmentally, yes there are ski areas in state and national forests. Virtually nothing has changed in Spring, Summer and Fall months. There maybe a pipeline vizable in some mountains, but all the snow guns are removed. Snowmaking has lifted Vermont out of poverty and improved Vermont educational level. Yet Vermont is still is largely rural area and the environment is still pristine!!! "
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The Arizona Daily Sun, Copyright 2009 © 1751 S. Thompson, Flagstaff, AZ
The Arizona Daily Sun, Copyright 2009 © 1751 S. Thompson, Flagstaff, AZ
Vince wrote on Jun 26, 2009 1:02 AM:
ERROL L. MONTGOMERY & ASSOCIATES, INC., points out the fault line which goes straight to the Arizona Snow Bowl. page 3.
http://www.elmontgomery.net/docs/publications/PlateauGroundwater_Montgomery.pdf
The ? effluent goes down the Rio De Flag. Fortunately, the water most likely drains into a Breccia pipe which drains into the Redwall Limestone. So the City got lucky in finding a Black Hole for there sewer. The environment is not a scene to apply general concepts. One needs to look at the geology, fault lines, grabens, sinkholes, etc. to determine where the sewer is flowing. Drilling maybe necessary. Look for water in Valle. Drill at one place and there is no water. Another place reveals water. Nature is specific. To compare the Rio De Flag to the Snowbowl is like staring in the mirron and saying that is me, but its not.
Its a no brainer, that Flagstaff has A+, but state regs say A is only needed does not imply that Flagstaff has A water from the state regulations. The state say A is only needed. I will repeat what you say that Flagstaff has A+ water.
If Flagstaff has A+ water, Why are Noro Virus outbreaks in Flagstaff? This implies that Flagstaff is not producing A+ water, but maybe B. This makes me worry about AWWA standards and how frequent are the insepctions.
Somebody should do a dye test at the Arizona Snow Bowl to see where it ends up, if it has not already been done. "